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	<title>Comments on: Pure Math, Applied Math, and A Priori Proofs</title>
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		<title>By: AJ</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-1201</link>
		<dc:creator>AJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-1201</guid>
		<description>Sam,

You&#039;re equivocating on the meaning of &quot;true.&quot; I suggest re-reading the main post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam,</p>
<p>You&#8217;re equivocating on the meaning of &#8220;true.&#8221; I suggest re-reading the main post.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Condon</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-741</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Condon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 11:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-741</guid>
		<description>But surely if i were to think of an equalitral triangle and you were to build an equalitral triangle, the angles and ratio of sides would be the same; the only difference being the size?

While your right in that i can&#039;t prove that triangles are synthetic, i can prove that maths is not true by definition. Take for example your alien civilisation which you mention, were maths true by definition they would have their own system of maths and physics. Yet, the problem is that they would get things wrong. Using maths we can predict things in the real world (how much weight a bridge can take before calapse, how much fuel we need to drive somewhere etc) but, were you to use a different mathematical system; you would find that your bridges would fall down before you thought so, or that you wouldn&#039;t have enough fuel to drive somewhere. The simple fact that maths is not only true by definition makes it not analytic, so therefore maths must be synthetic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But surely if i were to think of an equalitral triangle and you were to build an equalitral triangle, the angles and ratio of sides would be the same; the only difference being the size?</p>
<p>While your right in that i can&#8217;t prove that triangles are synthetic, i can prove that maths is not true by definition. Take for example your alien civilisation which you mention, were maths true by definition they would have their own system of maths and physics. Yet, the problem is that they would get things wrong. Using maths we can predict things in the real world (how much weight a bridge can take before calapse, how much fuel we need to drive somewhere etc) but, were you to use a different mathematical system; you would find that your bridges would fall down before you thought so, or that you wouldn&#8217;t have enough fuel to drive somewhere. The simple fact that maths is not only true by definition makes it not analytic, so therefore maths must be synthetic.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Wintersmith</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-733</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Wintersmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 18:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-733</guid>
		<description>Sam, the name &quot;triangle&quot; is given to two different sorts of things which, from a philosopher&#039;s perspective, have radically different natures. Firstly, there are &lt;em&gt;abstract triangles&lt;/em&gt;, which we define into existence and whose properties are entirely independent of any observational evidence. Secondly, there are &lt;em&gt;physical triangles&lt;/em&gt;, such as the ones you might draw on paper or build to support a bridge.

These two things are linked together by a process called mathematical modeling. We hypothesize the the class of things we&#039;ve grouped together under the name physical triangles has same properties as the abstract triangles which mathematicians invented. Whether this is true or not is a synthetic question. But the properties of the abstract triangles are entirely analytic in any case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam, the name &#8220;triangle&#8221; is given to two different sorts of things which, from a philosopher&#8217;s perspective, have radically different natures. Firstly, there are <em>abstract triangles</em>, which we define into existence and whose properties are entirely independent of any observational evidence. Secondly, there are <em>physical triangles</em>, such as the ones you might draw on paper or build to support a bridge.</p>
<p>These two things are linked together by a process called mathematical modeling. We hypothesize the the class of things we&#8217;ve grouped together under the name physical triangles has same properties as the abstract triangles which mathematicians invented. Whether this is true or not is a synthetic question. But the properties of the abstract triangles are entirely analytic in any case.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Condon</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-729</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Condon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 14:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-729</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m afraid what you have done is give one example of mathematics which is not synthetic, not prove that all maths is not synthetic. The idea that a side with three sides is a triange and that the internal angles of that triangle add up to 180 degrees is infact synthetic knowledge, as it is usefull to those who are building a triangular structure or are building triangular supports.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid what you have done is give one example of mathematics which is not synthetic, not prove that all maths is not synthetic. The idea that a side with three sides is a triange and that the internal angles of that triangle add up to 180 degrees is infact synthetic knowledge, as it is usefull to those who are building a triangular structure or are building triangular supports.</p>
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		<title>By: Addicus Finch</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-382</link>
		<dc:creator>Addicus Finch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Dec 2008 04:22:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-382</guid>
		<description>What if we can conclude the existence of constants, a priori? in other words, the existence of things with velocity/speed that is constant and not relative, like the speed of light.  Perhaps the existence of such constants are axiomatic, and therefore something like time dilation, can be deduced a priori, without empirically finding constants such as light.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if we can conclude the existence of constants, a priori? in other words, the existence of things with velocity/speed that is constant and not relative, like the speed of light.  Perhaps the existence of such constants are axiomatic, and therefore something like time dilation, can be deduced a priori, without empirically finding constants such as light.</p>
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		<title>By: Jessica Kroll</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-373</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessica Kroll</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-373</guid>
		<description>Einsteins research was theoretically enhanced by Newtons laws only because they could prove that there was something that couldn&#039;t be explained. It seems as though Newtons theory was correct but was not complete because he was not aware of what Einstein knew.     

Einstein had unsuccessful experiments of the Solar Eclipse, and as stated before newton didn&#039;t have a unified model to preserve the theory in order to compare against Einstein&#039;s.
Thank god for modern technology!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Einsteins research was theoretically enhanced by Newtons laws only because they could prove that there was something that couldn&#8217;t be explained. It seems as though Newtons theory was correct but was not complete because he was not aware of what Einstein knew.     </p>
<p>Einstein had unsuccessful experiments of the Solar Eclipse, and as stated before newton didn&#8217;t have a unified model to preserve the theory in order to compare against Einstein&#8217;s.<br />
Thank god for modern technology!</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Wintersmith</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-350</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Wintersmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-350</guid>
		<description>&quot;GR came about solely because of the incompatibility of special relativity with gravity.&quot; Correct.

&quot;There were no experiments to suggest that there was something wrong with gravity as it was currently understood.&quot; Not correct. The reason people were looking for a new theory of gravity is precisely because the body of experiments supporting special relativity strongly suggested that Newton&#039;s theory of gravity was wrong.

It may seem odd that experimental results concerning non-gravitational phenomena could provide evidence against Newton&#039;s theory of gravity. But those relativistic phenomena can, in principle, interact with gravitation, and hence the need for a unified theory.

At first glance, there&#039;s no reason why such a unified theory should preserve Einstein&#039;s theory of relativity and toss out Newton&#039;s gravitation rather than vice-versa. (Indeed, it would be perfectly acceptable to propose a grand theory incompatible with &lt;em&gt;both&lt;/em&gt; special relativity and Newtonian gravitation, provided the new model is compatible with the experimental evidence underlying those old models.) The reason people suspected that Newton was wrong is because no one knew how to put together a unified model which both  preserved Newton&#039;s theory and accounted for experimental results in relativity and E&amp;M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;GR came about solely because of the incompatibility of special relativity with gravity.&#8221; Correct.</p>
<p>&#8220;There were no experiments to suggest that there was something wrong with gravity as it was currently understood.&#8221; Not correct. The reason people were looking for a new theory of gravity is precisely because the body of experiments supporting special relativity strongly suggested that Newton&#8217;s theory of gravity was wrong.</p>
<p>It may seem odd that experimental results concerning non-gravitational phenomena could provide evidence against Newton&#8217;s theory of gravity. But those relativistic phenomena can, in principle, interact with gravitation, and hence the need for a unified theory.</p>
<p>At first glance, there&#8217;s no reason why such a unified theory should preserve Einstein&#8217;s theory of relativity and toss out Newton&#8217;s gravitation rather than vice-versa. (Indeed, it would be perfectly acceptable to propose a grand theory incompatible with <em>both</em> special relativity and Newtonian gravitation, provided the new model is compatible with the experimental evidence underlying those old models.) The reason people suspected that Newton was wrong is because no one knew how to put together a unified model which both  preserved Newton&#8217;s theory and accounted for experimental results in relativity and E&#038;M.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete W</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-349</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-349</guid>
		<description>GR came about solely because of the incompatibility of special relativity with gravity.  There were no experiments to suggest that there was something wrong with gravity as it was currently understood.  David Hilbert was also working on GR at the same time as Einstein- I doubt he was poring through the journals looking at experimental results.

The assertion that physical theories should be physically reasonable (e.g. that GR should include Newtonian mechanics as a low-velocity special case) seems especially pedantic.  It&#039;s like saying mathematics shouldn&#039;t be considered a priori reasoning since mathematicians check whether their arguments are logically sound.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GR came about solely because of the incompatibility of special relativity with gravity.  There were no experiments to suggest that there was something wrong with gravity as it was currently understood.  David Hilbert was also working on GR at the same time as Einstein- I doubt he was poring through the journals looking at experimental results.</p>
<p>The assertion that physical theories should be physically reasonable (e.g. that GR should include Newtonian mechanics as a low-velocity special case) seems especially pedantic.  It&#8217;s like saying mathematics shouldn&#8217;t be considered a priori reasoning since mathematicians check whether their arguments are logically sound.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Wintersmith</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-215</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Wintersmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 02:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-215</guid>
		<description>You are ignoring the enormous bodies of experiments on gravity and relativistic dynamics that existed when GR was conceived. Any theory which hoped to provide a unified account of gravity and relativity had to be compatible with all that evidence. For example, any attempted theory which failed to approximate Newton&#039;s law of gravitation in the low-velocity limit would be immediately falsified by previous experiments. 

It&#039;s true that it took a long time to empirically confirm any of the more exotic phenomena predicted by GR. But that&#039;s not the same thing as saying there was no experimental evidence by which to judge it. Scientists put their bets on GR because it was the only relativistic theory of gravity proposed that was compatible with existing evidence. Science doesn&#039;t really pick out True theories; rather, it just gives us the tools to pick the best theory from extant rivals. And GR was effectively the only horse in the race.

Not &lt;em&gt;a priori&lt;/em&gt; at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are ignoring the enormous bodies of experiments on gravity and relativistic dynamics that existed when GR was conceived. Any theory which hoped to provide a unified account of gravity and relativity had to be compatible with all that evidence. For example, any attempted theory which failed to approximate Newton&#8217;s law of gravitation in the low-velocity limit would be immediately falsified by previous experiments. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that it took a long time to empirically confirm any of the more exotic phenomena predicted by GR. But that&#8217;s not the same thing as saying there was no experimental evidence by which to judge it. Scientists put their bets on GR because it was the only relativistic theory of gravity proposed that was compatible with existing evidence. Science doesn&#8217;t really pick out True theories; rather, it just gives us the tools to pick the best theory from extant rivals. And GR was effectively the only horse in the race.</p>
<p>Not <em>a priori</em> at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Ashish</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-212</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Oct 2007 19:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-212</guid>
		<description>Yes Einstein had had different conviction about theories. Briefly, in his idealistic thoughts, he referred that a real &#039;Theory&#039; should be articulated and conceived ipso facto, without any evidence whatsoever, before the observations can corroborate the theories predictions.

In his own context Einstein you know used to devise the intense &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/Goodies/Chasing_the_light/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&#039;Thought Experiments&#039;&lt;/a&gt;, something so insightful, ideation of which can only be possible in an Einstein&#039;s brain nerves. The slew of scientific developments taking place majorly before/after Relativity era had a different flavor: from Photoelectric effect tests to sprouting of Quantum Physics theories...you name it, all involved observation-research-theory evolution.

However, in only the case of General Relativity, there were NO experimental foundation put forth with the theory. The REAL evidences (1959+), [ not the Eddington one...that was essentially exaggerated! ] &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;came&lt;/a&gt; must after theory postulation (1919), and are &lt;a href=&quot;http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/26mar_einstein.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;still coming...&lt;/a&gt;
This is where Einstein is marvelous and is rightly acknowledged as. The beauty of a Theory is determined by its life it lives...Newton&#039;s ones lived three centuries. Einstein one has survived one...and counting.

His conviction was so stalwart that he sided against the Quantum worldview altogether and until his death in mid twentieth century he continued his quest for a unified theory. More the nobel prize in 1921 was given for his work on photo-electric  effects, ONLY because his theory on relativity cannot be tested and evidenced by that time. Do we need more backing for this &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; thing?

In fact it has been referred that Einstein work on General Relativity during 1914-19 is a period of &#039;the greatest intellectual human endeavor by a single brain&#039;
Refer &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Einstein-Times-Ronald-W-Clark/dp/038001159X&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ronald Clark&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; Biography for more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes Einstein had had different conviction about theories. Briefly, in his idealistic thoughts, he referred that a real &#8216;Theory&#8217; should be articulated and conceived ipso facto, without any evidence whatsoever, before the observations can corroborate the theories predictions.</p>
<p>In his own context Einstein you know used to devise the intense <a href="http://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/Goodies/Chasing_the_light/index.html" rel="nofollow">&#8216;Thought Experiments&#8217;</a>, something so insightful, ideation of which can only be possible in an Einstein&#8217;s brain nerves. The slew of scientific developments taking place majorly before/after Relativity era had a different flavor: from Photoelectric effect tests to sprouting of Quantum Physics theories&#8230;you name it, all involved observation-research-theory evolution.</p>
<p>However, in only the case of General Relativity, there were NO experimental foundation put forth with the theory. The REAL evidences (1959+), [ not the Eddington one...that was essentially exaggerated! ] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity" rel="nofollow">came</a> must after theory postulation (1919), and are <a href="http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/26mar_einstein.htm" rel="nofollow">still coming&#8230;</a><br />
This is where Einstein is marvelous and is rightly acknowledged as. The beauty of a Theory is determined by its life it lives&#8230;Newton&#8217;s ones lived three centuries. Einstein one has survived one&#8230;and counting.</p>
<p>His conviction was so stalwart that he sided against the Quantum worldview altogether and until his death in mid twentieth century he continued his quest for a unified theory. More the nobel prize in 1921 was given for his work on photo-electric  effects, ONLY because his theory on relativity cannot be tested and evidenced by that time. Do we need more backing for this <i>a priori</i> thing?</p>
<p>In fact it has been referred that Einstein work on General Relativity during 1914-19 is a period of &#8216;the greatest intellectual human endeavor by a single brain&#8217;<br />
Refer <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Einstein-Times-Ronald-W-Clark/dp/038001159X" rel="nofollow">Ronald Clark&#8217;s</a> Biography for more.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-207</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-207</guid>
		<description>I agree with all the other stuff you said, but Einstein always claimed that he was unaware of the Michelson-Morley experiment. The idea that the velocity of light is the same for all observers came from Maxwell&#039;s equations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with all the other stuff you said, but Einstein always claimed that he was unaware of the Michelson-Morley experiment. The idea that the velocity of light is the same for all observers came from Maxwell&#8217;s equations.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Wintersmith</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-196</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Wintersmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-196</guid>
		<description>Ok, if theologians aren&#039;t trying to use the ontological argument to prove that god must exist, then what are they trying to do?

A great deal of testing and measurement was necessary to arrive at the theory of relativity. The theory was specially constructed to account for experimental results in electromagnetism and, in particular, the results of the Michelson-Morley experiment. The reason Einstein and others had confidence in the theory was because it beautifully accounted for existing experimental data -- the theory had empirical support from its conception. If any of them said they were 100% certain the theory was correct, then they were either overconfident, or (more likely) just speaking hyperbolically. 

To be blunt: a priori reasoning can only prove things about made-up abstract entities, not real ones; math by itself is indeed quite useless.

But if you still think Einstein proved relativity correct a priori, please do give us the proof; since you have a minor in physics, I don&#039;t think that&#039;s asking too much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, if theologians aren&#8217;t trying to use the ontological argument to prove that god must exist, then what are they trying to do?</p>
<p>A great deal of testing and measurement was necessary to arrive at the theory of relativity. The theory was specially constructed to account for experimental results in electromagnetism and, in particular, the results of the Michelson-Morley experiment. The reason Einstein and others had confidence in the theory was because it beautifully accounted for existing experimental data &#8212; the theory had empirical support from its conception. If any of them said they were 100% certain the theory was correct, then they were either overconfident, or (more likely) just speaking hyperbolically. </p>
<p>To be blunt: a priori reasoning can only prove things about made-up abstract entities, not real ones; math by itself is indeed quite useless.</p>
<p>But if you still think Einstein proved relativity correct a priori, please do give us the proof; since you have a minor in physics, I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s asking too much.</p>
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		<title>By: Deep Thought</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-195</link>
		<dc:creator>Deep Thought</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 05:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-195</guid>
		<description>Jacob, I have a small suggestion - ask a theologian what we do before trying to tell us what we do. You seem to think we dit in an ivory tower, making utopias of the mind. Far from it - we are dealing with human nature, and we know it.

  Einstein and his early adherents we certain - *CERTAIN* - that he described reality in his mathematics before any real world confirmations existed. Trust me - I have a minor in physics and was a physics major before I switched to theology. Indeed, his mathematics are so very good that - a priori - if they are wrong, there is something wrong with math. 

  The critical element is that Einstein need not do any testing or measurements to build a beuatifuly accurate picture of reality through a priori reasoning. all of your attempts to change to focus miss this point - a priori *MUST* be sound or mathematics is useless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob, I have a small suggestion &#8211; ask a theologian what we do before trying to tell us what we do. You seem to think we dit in an ivory tower, making utopias of the mind. Far from it &#8211; we are dealing with human nature, and we know it.</p>
<p>  Einstein and his early adherents we certain &#8211; *CERTAIN* &#8211; that he described reality in his mathematics before any real world confirmations existed. Trust me &#8211; I have a minor in physics and was a physics major before I switched to theology. Indeed, his mathematics are so very good that &#8211; a priori &#8211; if they are wrong, there is something wrong with math. </p>
<p>  The critical element is that Einstein need not do any testing or measurements to build a beuatifuly accurate picture of reality through a priori reasoning. all of your attempts to change to focus miss this point &#8211; a priori *MUST* be sound or mathematics is useless.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Wintersmith</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-190</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Wintersmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-190</guid>
		<description>What scientists do -- mathematical modeling, and empirically testing the model -- is very different from what theologians are trying to do in the ontological argument. We build an abstract logical construct to describe the world, and then go out and do tests to see if the world behaves as the model predicts. We don&#039;t conclude a priori that the world &lt;em&gt;must&lt;/em&gt; behave in the way the model predicts. Often, it doesn&#039;t. The fact that our models can be refuted by empirical evidence should make it clear that we aren&#039;t proving anything &lt;em&gt;a priori&lt;/em&gt;. Furthermore, the fact that a model has been empirically refuted doesn&#039;t mean that anyone made a mistake in the math -- even if a model&#039;s mathematical formalism is flawless, its assertion that the real world behaves like the math does can still be incorrect.

Theologians are trying to piece together a bunch of abstract logic and conclude that the world &lt;em&gt;must&lt;/em&gt; work in a particular way (namely, that god must necessarily exist). The entire point of an a priori argument for god is to try to show that god exists without doing any empirical observations. And the only reason anyone attempts to do such a thing is because there is no empirical evidence that god exists.

Lastly, you&#039;re just wrong about Einstein. I&#039;ve never heard a physics professor claim he proved any physical results a priori, or read a relativity textbook which gave anything resembling an a priori proof of the theory&#039;s correctness. If you really think all of us are wrong about this, perhaps you&#039;d be so kind as to show us such a proof.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What scientists do &#8212; mathematical modeling, and empirically testing the model &#8212; is very different from what theologians are trying to do in the ontological argument. We build an abstract logical construct to describe the world, and then go out and do tests to see if the world behaves as the model predicts. We don&#8217;t conclude a priori that the world <em>must</em> behave in the way the model predicts. Often, it doesn&#8217;t. The fact that our models can be refuted by empirical evidence should make it clear that we aren&#8217;t proving anything <em>a priori</em>. Furthermore, the fact that a model has been empirically refuted doesn&#8217;t mean that anyone made a mistake in the math &#8212; even if a model&#8217;s mathematical formalism is flawless, its assertion that the real world behaves like the math does can still be incorrect.</p>
<p>Theologians are trying to piece together a bunch of abstract logic and conclude that the world <em>must</em> work in a particular way (namely, that god must necessarily exist). The entire point of an a priori argument for god is to try to show that god exists without doing any empirical observations. And the only reason anyone attempts to do such a thing is because there is no empirical evidence that god exists.</p>
<p>Lastly, you&#8217;re just wrong about Einstein. I&#8217;ve never heard a physics professor claim he proved any physical results a priori, or read a relativity textbook which gave anything resembling an a priori proof of the theory&#8217;s correctness. If you really think all of us are wrong about this, perhaps you&#8217;d be so kind as to show us such a proof.</p>
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		<title>By: Deep Thought</title>
		<link>http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/comment-page-1/#comment-189</link>
		<dc:creator>Deep Thought</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wintershaven.net/2007/09/11/pure-math-applied-math-and-a-priori-proofs/#comment-189</guid>
		<description>And your point is? Seriously, where do you think this is going? You stated that “Like Hume and Dawkins, I think that it’s pretty laughable to attempt an a priori proof of the existence of anything” and go on to claim that math isn&#039;t *really* a priori... when Hume exempted it from his dismissal of a priori. Sorry - your demonstration that a priori pure mathematics can then be shown to be materially true is *not* a dismissal of a priori, it is a *validation* of it! Einstein&#039;s work was purely a priori, and only a priori, until work was done to show it in the &#039;real world&#039; - the a priori work convinced many to move past the work of Newton, after all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And your point is? Seriously, where do you think this is going? You stated that “Like Hume and Dawkins, I think that it’s pretty laughable to attempt an a priori proof of the existence of anything” and go on to claim that math isn&#8217;t *really* a priori&#8230; when Hume exempted it from his dismissal of a priori. Sorry &#8211; your demonstration that a priori pure mathematics can then be shown to be materially true is *not* a dismissal of a priori, it is a *validation* of it! Einstein&#8217;s work was purely a priori, and only a priori, until work was done to show it in the &#8216;real world&#8217; &#8211; the a priori work convinced many to move past the work of Newton, after all.</p>
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